Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Logi on Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:38 am

For Dimoh's issue, surely a separate genny would be the answer? Less fuel,esp on red?
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:50 am

Talked about that too but he has four vehicles all with interchangeable units ( demountables).
He has had Generators nicked off the back before  so needs  all four Jets with the alternator problem rectified Rolling Eyes ( sorry,  couldn't resistor Laughing that).
Sorry it's you that does the jokes round here.  Mine are always clean ones though.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Logi on Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:53 am

Yeah, but mine are funny................
lol!
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:55 am

Right. Time to bite the bullet. I was wrong about the Grand Move Alternator. It is a direct replacement for the Hi-Jet Alternator.
Not only that it has a Poly V pulley setup with a tiny Alternator pulley and water pump pulley and a MASSIVE CRANK PULLEY to so they are both spinning a lot faster than the standard Hi-Jet ones.

So it almost looks like the answers to D1noh's problems.
I will forward some pictures to D1noh and Matt to look at and put on here.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Logi on Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:59 am

I know that you can get alternator conversions for old dynamo equipped cars, they look like a dynamo but aren't, , so i reckon that they can do a larger output dinky alternator?
Or find out what other cars have the same alternator, very few are specifically made for one model only.

( tho, it IS Daihatsu......)
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Logi on Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:01 pm

Logi wrote:I know that you can get alternator conversions for old dynamo equipped cars, they look like a dynamo but aren't, , so i reckon that they can do a larger output dinky alternator?
Or find out what other cars have the same alternator, very few are specifically made for one model only.

( tho, it IS Daihatsu......)
Edited to say, i am amazing, aren't I...... Laughing
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Eightpot on Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:12 pm

woody wrote:Talked about that too but he has four vehicles all with interchangeable units ( demountables).
He has had Generators nicked off the back before  so needs  all four Jets with the alternator problem rectified Rolling Eyes ( sorry,  couldn't resistor Laughing that).
Sorry it's you that does the jokes round here.  Mine are always clean ones though.

While not quite in the "generator" league, perhaps a simple two stroke engine driving a dedicated alternator to power the lighting rig could be the answer? Simple to buy the bits and build - a lucas A127 75amp alt can be picked up new on ebay for a little over 50 quid, an old mower engine for pennies mounted on a rack would make it portable enough to move it between vehicles - also as it won't look like a shop bought generator it shouldn't be quite so nickable, but it'll take the pressure off the engine mounted alternator and by extension - the engine.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:22 pm

But that is by x 4 vehicles. If the Grand Move Alternator is 70amp and as it has the grooved belt then that is far simpler and not nick-able as a Genny is.
OK got to find Four Grand Moves for the parts but that shouldn't be too much hardship.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Eightpot on Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:19 pm

A fair few Grand Move recon alts on Ebay, but only rated to 50amps. :/

But the mounting looks a lot like the alt on my boat which is 70 amp and single pulley:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221429246949

When I'm back down the engine 'ole, I'll take a rule and have a little measuring sesh.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:20 pm

Good man.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by elfin girl on Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:23 pm

thats all interesting. now wondering if maybe i have another issue. i find that the van is slow to start.. after ive used it most times, and worse in the winter on first start. i put it down to pissy little battery and the fact that its hanging below the van with little protection from the cold. i thought that if i put a better battery on i wouldnt get that "uh oh has the battery died is it going to start" feeling every time i use it!
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by HighlyJetted on Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:13 pm

Here is the photo that woody emailed me:-



If I wanted a bigger alternator setup, I would have that crank pulley, water pump pulley, possibly the water pump too, and the alternator and brackets.

Then I would buy a 70 amp Denso DenDan970 as seen on this Denso fitment list.

http://www.woodauto.com/pdf/DEN2013.pdf

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:22 pm

That's interesting Matt. I hadn't thought about looking on the Extol I have got. I see it is listed as 60 or 65 amp.
I realize it is a Toyota engine in there but will look at that too tomorrow and see what the configuration of the Alternator is.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:06 am

One problem with the 970 I have spotted is that it has a three pin connector plug in the back, whereas the 40amp Hi-Jet ones are a two blade T shaped connector plug.

How do you get round that wiring that up? I am completely in the dark there!!

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:13 am

I looked at the Wood site and it does look as though the 70amp Alternator is of the same size as the lower amperage ones.

So only visible way of identifying the different ones would appear to be by the label on it - so long as it's readable.

If it stays dry today I will get my R reg Move going and get underneath it and check out the label on it.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by bushwhacker on Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:40 pm

From what I was told a few years ago Scotia is in fact correct. I was told that the maximum battery size I should consider was 60 Ah (might have said 70 but fairly certain 60) otherwise it will take the alternator too long to charge the battery (over an hour I think he said -- longer than most journeys).

The alternator is 50 amp for both 993 and 1.3 according to the workshop manuals but if you want to fit a larger alternator why not use the one from the diesel, which I seem to remember is 65 amp.

I would not use the amp rating to determine battery power as it the Cold Cranking rating which is the amount a battery can produce in a very short burst usually for starting purposes. The battery capacity is indicated by the discharge rate in Ah. (230 amp is probably bog standard Hijet; the diesel uses 360 amp while I  use 425 amp to make sure it will start long term (as long as it is charged).

Another bit of probably useless information I found a while ago is that a typical car has a power consumption of 2kw or thereabouts.
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by HighlyJetted on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:07 pm

You only have to replace the charge you have used though.
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by scotia on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:33 pm

Shocked my brain hurts from reading all this
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:04 pm

I have got a Diesel alternator but it is different completely.Fitting wise and opposite handed.
.The Diesel engine lays over on the drivers side but the petrol lays on the passenger side.

The five batteries I bought were 580amp the larger three for vans and 520amp the smaller two for Pickups.
I understood that the Hi-Jets were 40 amp alternators BW. The GrandMove is 50 amp but there is a listing of 70amp ones which I may have on one of mine which has Aircon, Electric Windows and Door mirrors etc etc so may well be the elusive 70 amp one we are trying to locate for D1noh.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by PFM on Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:15 pm

I'm not at HJ's level on elecs but these points occur:

1 - The circuit in the alternator should stop charging the battery when it's 'full'
2 - A small output alternator will take longer to charge a big 'capacity' battery.
3 - D1noh's problem is that lights discharge more than his alternator(s) can replenish.

Rather than a 'nickable' jenny, would a possible answer be to stack more batteries on the pick-ups (or light-rigs) and charge them from the mains to supplement the on-board set-up?

(Sorry if being stupid - have been around a mate today who parked his Merc 6 months ago and STILL can't remember where!!!!)

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:17 pm

His name can't be Logi then. He would NEVER forget where he left his Merc for sure.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by HighlyJetted on Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:31 pm

bushwhacker wrote:Another bit of probably useless information I found a while ago is that a typical car has a power consumption of 2kw or thereabouts.

Not so sure about that BW,
2000 watts @ 13 volts = 153 amp

PFM wrote:D1noh's problem is that lights discharge more than his alternator(s) can replenish.

This is the biggie!



Just jotting some numbers down -

a pair of headlights 130 watts = 10 amp   (2 x 65 watt bulbs)
rear lights and dash etc 40 watts = 3 amp
brake lights 40 watts = 3 amp
Ignition system - EFI system, Fuel pump = ??? maybe 3 amp
Turn your heater fans on and that's got to be 15 amp - which I bet Dino is running his lighting rig at night (!!!) and its cold and wet.

So there is 31 amp straight away

Then he ain't driving anywhere quickly with that shizzle on the back so every time the Kenlow radiator cooling fan kicks in theres another 20.8 amp according to their website.

Soon as the Kenlow kicks in, we are already overdrawing the alternators output - by a solid 25%

Then Strap a 300 watt 23 amp lighting rig on the back like some crazy fool and it doesn't stand a chance - he knew that already that's why he bought that donking battery.

Realistically, a 70 amp alternator would resolve this entire problem most likely.

31 amp typical load
23 amp lighting tower
= 54 amp

Then the kenlowe kicks in doing 20 amp and we are just margin over its rated capacity, but they are rated to give a bit of breathing room. I'm over estimating a bit here and there too, so it would all work out to be a pretty balanced system.  

There's a term thrown about "Diversity Factor" - I think you would apply it too stuff like the Kenlowe fan and the Brake lights - because they are not always on so that load comes and goes as its needed.

The down fall in all of this above theory:-

If Dino runs his lighting rig for an hour with the engine off, then starts the engine with the lighting rig still on and all the other lights/fans/etc on, then the somewhat discharged battery will become another load on the system. Calculating that load is very difficult as it depends on the internal resistance curve of the battery as it discharges. But if I was some crude road crewe late night worker, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by d1noh on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:43 pm

Thanks all for getting involved, the vehicle gets un plugged from a mains 240volt charger before it comes out of the garage so fully charged before a shift.
Rear lights are Led (will look into doing the front) the kenlowe runs at 8 amp, calculation should give me 6 hours for the lighting rig without imput from the vehicle so think I will have to revert back to the standard battery set up and use the rig as a stand alone unit untill I can reslove the bigger alternator,
I have got a Boab outback charger now that will fit in the cab when not in use but it's not ideal as often I leave the vehicle unattended so being powered by by the running vehicle was easy.
http://www.boab.biz/acatalog/Battery_chargers.html

http://www.bannerbatterien.com/banner/produkte/batterien/energy_bull/rechner/index5.php
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by HighlyJetted on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:46 pm

I've been thinking about this some more....

Take this for a scenario:-

You have a battery fully charged e.g 12.8 volts

You have an alternator pump out 13.8 volts

Where will the current be sourced from to power the light... will it rob the alternator before the battery or what.

There is a mathematical electronics tool called Kirchoffs Voltage Law, using 2 loops you could calculate this.

I think because the voltage is higher on the alternator, the alternator will always supply the majority of the current. But Kirchoffs and thevenin's theorem was never my strong subjects!
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:21 am

Well you were right on the money BW. The rather large Diesel Alternator is indeed rated at 65amp. And it has its own cooling fan too similar to the older Lucas ones. Somehow I would like to work out a way of fitting it to a 1300. Trouble is the little V belt complains and squeals enough with a 40 amp on it so what it would do with a 65 on it one would constantly be out with a crowbar adjusting it.


The 70amp Grand Move setup seems to be the way to go.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by bushwhacker on Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:45 pm

Well, the Hijet workshop manual still says 50 amp. (Just checked).

The figure of 2kw is from memory but came originally from a Ford workshop manual.
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Logi on Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:57 pm

YRV or Sirion are 70amp alternators.
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by Guest on Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:04 pm

Oh yes. Nearly forgot. I checked on my Extol which has the Toyota VVTI Yaris engine and its different to the Hi-Jet.

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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by HighlyJetted on Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:07 pm

Yes, thus my choice on the list = H series alternators.

Not a K3 toyota engine alternator.

I'm just guessing as never seen them next to each other, but my blind choice would be a H series to be safe.
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

Post by ToaseMan on Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:22 pm

scotia wrote:Shocked  my brain hurts from reading all this
Same here.

So reading this, if I was in theory to add either spot lights (mad ideas of mine) or a lesaure battery to a 1.3 hijet, would you needed to up rate the alternator to a 70 AMP one off of a ..... Grand mover?
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Re: Big Beefy Batteries for Hi-Jets.

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