Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by maralions on Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:51 pm

OK blown down the pipe to the filler cap and also through the cap and they're fine, bit of resistance in the pipe like blowinv up a balloon but guessing that's normal?

Not sure if that's a good or bad thing. Any ideas on where to go next apart from the oil rings?

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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Raggy on Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:26 pm

Try Woodies suggestion of running it without pipe connected and see how you go before doing anything drastic seeing as you got it running without overheating.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by maralions on Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:30 pm

OK, so disconbect from the cap, clean out gunk, measure oil level, run it down the motorway and see where I get. If it can run without the pipe what's the point of it? So it doesn't gas you or cost the engine?

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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Raggy on Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:33 pm

Not sure where that pipe goes to (Woodie will know better) but its just a breather pipe so it should be just gas that comes out, pipe probably just so oily gas does not just spray all over engine.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Raggy on Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:49 pm

Right, just been browsing the manual (as you do of an evening!) and found this, may be woth a check.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Raggy on Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:03 pm

Bit more info about that pipe, its the Blow by Gas recirculating, whereas on the jag it just went down a pipe to a can and collected, on the Hijet it goes to the throttle body so it can be burnt again in the combustion chamber rather than just releasing it to the atmosphere (according to the manual anyway).
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Woodie on Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:16 pm

Sorry to burst your bubble Raggy but I have NEVER seen anything of the aforementioned programme. Other than Top Gear I seldom watched any other car programmes. Now that Ginger big-headed twerp is going to be running Flop-Gear I won't be watching even that. I can't stand the man.

It is impossible in my mind to think that anyone can replace the chemistry of Jeremy, Richard and James.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Raggy on Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:29 pm

Ah, bubble busted! Got it mixed up, knew it was one of them you were not keen on Laughing
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Woodie on Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:35 pm

The vacuum in the manifold generated by the intake of air into the cylinders sucks the gasses from the engine. It is designed to do that and with the vacuum pipe open will draw in air and the fuel /air mixture will be weakened and on top of the manifold is the MAP Sensor. This measures the Manifold Absolute Pressure and sends readings to the ECU. It is important that all the many vacuum pipes are airtight or ECU readings will be affected.

I should have told you, If you disconnect the filler cap pipe, block it up with a small bolt or pencil etc. Clean the cap out as previously described and replace it in the tube before running it or you will have oil over the engine.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Raggy on Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:50 pm

Good explanation, I lean something every day! Question, why is the direction of the pipe so important to oil useage as mentioned in the manual?
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Woodie on Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:16 pm

I assume that it will kink the pipe and thus stop the Scavenging effect and build up crank pressure and thus the oil is forced up the Cylinder bores by the Crankshaft, passed the rings and burnt.
Years ago I drove a newish Escort which had been over filled with oil. As you went uphill it started to "pink" or pre-detonate then huge plumes of white smoke emitting from the exhaust. This was caused by the high level of oil and the Crankshaft throwing the oil up the bores.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by maralions on Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:14 pm

Woodie wrote:
I should have told you, If you disconnect the filler cap pipe,  block it up with a small bolt or pencil etc. Clean the cap out as previously described and replace it in the tube before running it or you will have oil over the engine.

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly. Block the pipe (small rubber hose) with something that will block it entirely and leave it there? And then put the cap back on the oil tube (where you pour in oil). So the two are disconnected but the pipes are blocked. Do I need to block up the outlet thing that the hose attaches onto or will that make the engine go bang?

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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Woodie on Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:28 pm

Assuming that you have made sure that the pipe and elbow on the manifold is clear, by blowing down the pipe first. Just block the rubber pipe up, purely for a test run. But you need to have cleared all the gunge out of the cap by soaking it in petrol overnight and then thoroughly clean it out and unblock the pipe stub on the cap, if it is blocked, with a drill bit or thin screwdriver. The crankcase needs to breathe and relieve any pressure building up so the cap needs to be tested by blowing through the pipe stub. If the Cap is still blocked, then it's pointless Road testing it.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by maralions on Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:31 pm

OK cool. The pipe stub isn't blocked but will make sure it isn't after cleaning.

If all this doesn't make a difference do you think it's more likely to be the oil control rings, the valve stem seals or something else?

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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Woodie on Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:41 pm

Nope. I feel pretty confident that this is your problem. If it isn't that then the cheapest way would be to put another engine of known condition in. I certainly wouldn't recommend going to all the hassle and expense of rebuilding the engine. Complete waste of money.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by maralions on Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:42 pm

Really? But if I can blow through the pipe and the stub on the cap (which I can do) then isn't it OK? Slightly confused.

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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by HighlyJetted on Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:58 am

The principle of this is so simple.

It is a very very basic PCV/crank vent system employed by all cars since the late 1970's.

Doesn't understand basic typical engine systems, but does own head gasket job.

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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by maralions on Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:12 am

Well yes I know, but it wasn't too hard with the manual and lots of advice! I like problem solving and fiddly manual stuff and have done some work on my old motorbike taking so thought why not. I didnt know what I can was doing and first but just researched it and got some help. For the most part I managed fine, that's how you learn anyway to isn't it? I might have messed up the stem seals and missed a trick with the piston rings but that's the next problem to solve.

I understand the principle and the workings of the system fine, I just feel like I'm missing something - if I can blow through both the pipe and the stub on the cap (which i can) then isn't it OK? That's the bit I don't get.

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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by maralions on Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:14 am

Sorry this phone is awful to type on and it won't let me edit it... I do understand basic English!

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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Woodie on Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:33 am

To be completely sure on the rubber pipe issue, run the engine until warm and tick-over dropped to normal and check for a hissing noise from the end of the pipe as you have said that there is some resistance. Put your finger over the end of the pipe and see if the revs drop and speed up a little bit when you take your finger away. Open pipe - higher revs, closed pipe lower revs. If it doesn't alter then there is likely a blockage.
Just stop talking about it and go and TRY IT. If I am not right then it hasn't cost you anything. It is one more thing eliminated. It can be very difficult to diagnose problems from a distance and, trying and time consuming.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by maralions on Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:58 am

Oh no sorry Sad don't mean to be a pain. Just trying to understand it. Left Fran at the parents for the weekend so will report back shortly.

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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by HighlyJetted on Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:30 am

Not being a pain at all. Just trying to make you think about it. The answers are right in front of you, buried in the van.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Woodie on Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:32 am

Just another point of interest. With the engine running on tick-over and pipe off the filler cap, put the palm of your hand close to the little pipe stub and see if there is much air coming out of it or smoke. Then try blocking it with your hand for 30 seconds. If when you take your hand away you get a rush of air or gasses to be precise then the crankcase is pressurising due to gas blow by past the pistons. A little pressure is to be expected on a worn engine. But a big build up of gas is an unwelcome symptom.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by bushwhacker on Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:53 pm

Raggy wrote:Good explanation, I lean something every day! Question, why is the direction of the pipe so important to oil useage as mentioned in the manual?

The pipe is only just long enough for it's purpose. If it is not aligned properly, or something is in the way, it will unseat the oil filler cap which will cause it to start burning oil.

I overcame that by lengthening the pipe so that it is no longer so fussy.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by maralions on Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:57 pm

Mu filler cap is a bit wobbly. Like you can push it all the way on but then it will lift occasionally. Need to look at that diagram with the van and make sure that isn't contributing to it too.

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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Woodie on Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:10 pm

If it lifts up it is due to crankcase pressure build up pushing it up. It should be a good tight fit in the pipe. Hard to remove. Gasses getting past the piston rings. Have you got smoke coming out of the Filler pipe with the cap off and have you tried the crankcase pressure build up test yet?? What happened when you tried it. Is there a build up of pressure.?
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by maralions on Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:22 am

I've left Fran at my parent's house but will be able do all these things on Tuesday. I had to drive up to Preston so thought I'd leave it there where we can look at it... I live on a little island in Northwich so it's hard to do anything there on the side of the road with no power etc. and a 1/4 mile walk every time you forget a frickin tool. I was going to do a compression test and also a leak down test depending on whether I can get the equipment or not. I'll report back!

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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by Woodie on Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:44 am

Oh crikey, not an easy scenario you have there then. I am so fortunate with having somewhere to work that is industrial, a home with a single garage and a drive for two vehicles. I just take them for granted and forget that others are out at work, whereas I can choose to go to work or not.

Having always been a really hard grafter, I never thought that I would be able to accept retirement so easily.
I really hope that you can sort the problems with the van - easily.
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Re: Figuring out the problem...overheating and oil

Post by maralions on Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:50 am

Same here!!

I'm going up to Scotland mid-week and then spending 4 or 5 days fixing the van with the boyfriend. I'm hoping that we can just get it completely sorted. I've sent the parents away on holiday for a couple of days so they'll be none the wiser to the copious amounts of oil being flicked onto the geraniums Smile

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Update

Post by maralions on Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:36 pm

I've been working on the van this morning and have some updates:

- I removed the breather pipe. It's completely clear.
- I cleaned out the filler cap, this is now completely clear
- I removed the pipe connecting the filler cap and cleaned this out plus the cap join section. This was absolutely full of gunk (see pictures)



Some points:
- there were beads of water through the pipe including the end connecting to the engine
- Drove it this morning but didn't get up to temp (just to local shop). No noise on starting
- I can't get to the metal elbow into the inlet manifold (red arrow in pic) enough to see if it is blocked. Blowing through the pipe when connected there is some resistance (like blowing up a balloon). Not sure how/if to clean this - again not sure how much resistance there should be.



Now that the system is as clean as I can get it, I'm going to start it up and do tests that Raggy suggested with the pipe. Reporting back shortly.

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