BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

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BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Pete_1971 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:04 pm

Hi all, Pete here near Swansea.

1997 993cc Camper.

Brake pipe (rear) burst during M.O.T. and weight valve not working. Recovered home and replaced pipes from master to rear. New flexi pipe @ rear. New pair of slave cylinders. Removed weight valve in favour of a "T".
Re-test failure on:
Weight valve (VOSA) "where fitted as standard... must be present and functioning"
50% difference in brake strength between N/S and O/S.
Not enough total brake strength.

I don't want to say what I think is wrong but instead ask for your opinion.
1> The weight valve has been soaked etc and is a lost cause so will need to find a new one.
2> I do not know if the rear brakes were assembled correctly last time without a diagram (which I am unable to locate).
3. The fluid has been well bled but there is always room for error I guess.
4> I do not have a gauge to check the master cylinder pressure.
All in all I have changed any parts I can get my hands on easily and put in around 40 hours labour. If it was not for the brand new camper conversion I would have weighed it in as I feel like I am banging my head against a wall.
Any thoughts on the matter?

I have found an '07 Piaggio Porter in a scrapy to bastarise parts from.
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Logi on Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:32 pm

Err, this may seem obvious, fit another load sensing valve? It'll never pass without it, it's why your brake pressure is way off.
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Pete_1971 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:18 pm

Okay will change load valve. I will whip it off the 07 Piaggio and hope it fits. Any other ideas?
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Logi on Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:16 pm

Replacing the load sensing valve will prob fix it, the back end is a bugger to bleed, there's a nipple on the lsv. Any other ideas? Yes. get everything you can off the Porter in the scrappy, they're rare to find in a breakers. Smile
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Pete_1971 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:11 pm

An 07 in a scrappy is pretty rare.
All Spares
Garth Works, Taff's Well, Cardiff CF15 7YF
029 2081 4004 ‎ · allspares.co.uk
If this helps anyone.
What would you have off it for a rainy day? I was thinking rad and fan.


.
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Pete_1971 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:29 pm

What would you have off it for a rainy day.... der.... windscreen wipers lol!
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by rich the mechanic on Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:36 pm

With the lspv so long as it is there it is okay there is no function test for it (and if you stick enough weight in the back to activate it then they won't take a second look so long as it looks right unless they remember you and the T piece) so if you can make it work on full power then fit it like that as for bleading the nipple is seized in ours and now broken off trying to get it moving but to bleed across was a pain untill I clamped the flexi to the axle pumped up the pressure then opened the valve and under pedal load took the clamp off this shot out the air and a load of claggy shit then just blead it as normal to get some fresh fluid in and it has been good as gold since 3 MOT's later.

I think you have an air lock in the system.
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Pete_1971 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:52 pm

Rich. Should I put the original lsv back on then. I understand it's either open a bit or full on but if it fails won't it cause a blockage? And yes... air bubbles. Bleed again. I have seen your original post and will clamp off the flexi etc.
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by rich the mechanic on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:53 pm

unless you get a good one from the breakers i would I haven't had ours apart but ours is seized on full load/power so haven't bothered I was thinking along the lines of getting it on full load/power and fixing it there by some means ie bending the pin or a dab of weld hidden inside or something of that nature so it isn't obvious.
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Logi on Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:12 pm

rich the mechanic wrote:With the lspv so long as it is there it is okay there is no function test for it .


You sure?

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Special%20Notice%2009-11.pdf
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Pete_1971 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:33 pm

A dab of weld I can do! I must add that to my list of fixits.
Lot's of WD40.
Duck tape.
Hit it with a hammer.
Dab of weld.
I grew up in Essex and it was always a long intake of air followed by a longer bill. Come to the Valleys Rich, you would fit right in.
I don't see how a "T" is different to an open valve but there again... plenty of stuff confuzels me, especially the laws of physics (which are to be obeyed)
Refit lsv in the open position. Bleed, bleed and bleed again. Cover all my good work in black goop and smile at the M.O.T man. Sounds like a plan.
I'm still going to strip that Porter on the A470 Twisted Evil
*** Just seen Logi's comment.
So what do you reckon? Salvage a new one of the '07 Piaggio and use a dab of weld/hammer/WD40.....
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Pete_1971 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:43 pm

Yep. That's the page the MOT guy started on and then followed it step by step till he found the part on load valves. Pretty rich coming from the guy who burst the pipe in the first place while it was on the ramps. But you can't argue with the ref! Logi, Rich... you have both been great and I don't want to cause a fall out. I'll let you know how I get on (or get a hooky MOT for £80)
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by rich the mechanic on Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:35 pm

Logi I was working on have you ever seen a MOT tester stick a shit load of weight in the back of a van and re run the brake test?

Pete if you can get the lspv then all is good and if you have to pay for a re test then I would take it somewhere else the guys I use arn't the cheapest but I do get a free retest which is normally required and I have had a mate bring me his transit to change a wheel bearing as it failed it's MOT I looked at it and got him to take it to my guys and it passed without me changing anything aprt from adjusting the hand brake.
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Logi on Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:43 pm

rich the mechanic wrote:Logi I was working on have you ever seen a MOT tester stick a shit load of weight in the back of a van and re run the brake test? .

Regularly mate, every HGV i've ever taken for a test, they even have a machine for it............... Razz

The tester should check it's operation, ie if it's free, easily done by moving the lever arm and checking the plunger moves(what i'm guessing Pete's tester did?) The biggest prob will be the fact he's bypassed it previously, the tester will want to check it's there. Many things pass in some stations, i've had a Transit pass before i'd brought it into the garage Wink But the prob now is it's all computerised and checkable. A friend of mine has an illegal headlamp on one of his bikes, very similar to mine, and it needs to be fitted with "headlamp convertors" to pass, and the tester needs to now remember to record this on the MOT(as they are invisible Wink )
TBH if one is available it's worth fitting, or if not and it's not seized the original can be "improved" by welding a 5mm nut on the arm to help it up Wink
And i agree, it'll not be bled properly.
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by rich the mechanic on Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:55 pm

the first test I had on the van was when they told me that it was not working (it passed) and it hasn't been mentioned since at the station I use now and I only go to class 4 and 7 testers I suspect a tractor unit test would be ten times more thorough than a PLG test.
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Pete_1971 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:24 pm

No mention of the master cylinder so far. Good! Scrap heap challenge 2moro for lsv but does anyone know if tailgate on 07 Paiggio fits a 1997 Jet? In fact, what doors swap?
Thanks guys for your advice. My Jet is fitted out with the "L" shape bench to bed and pull down table/cupboard all with pro upholstery and matching PVC trim and lined curtains. If I can't get the MOT my wife will put it on bricks and make me live in it. (I hope its in a wifi zone at McDonalds Laughing )
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by bushwhacker on Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:14 pm

Is the Piaggio still in the scrapyard or has it been stripped by now?

I'm after a 'steering idler' which is otherwise very expensive and subject to a three week order time.
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by HighlyJetted on Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:05 pm

You do need a load balancing valve present if fitted as standard, and it needs to appear to work.

But what I do with mine is I force the little piston all the way down, then weld them in place.

I think it improves the braking on a hijet no end.

I've take my hijet, and other vehicles I've done this on to a very strict MOT station, where they have passed.

Although there has been some sarcastic comments about the valve - seems to be a bit odd!

I think getting a pass certificate is an easy job on this, who ever removed the load detector needs to get clued up on the MOT testing requirements!!
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by Pete_1971 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:04 pm

Bushwacker - I believe the details are posted earlier for the scrappy. The steering assembly was all there.
So this is how it all ended..... are you sitting comfortably....
Had a great visit to the srappy and had the load valve AND brake master cylinder off the 2007 Piaggio Porter on account of it being £45 all in affraid (after much joking, leg pulling and swear words as is the way in The Valleys). A result I am sure you will all agree. Did they fit I hear you say? Question
Twisted Evil Hell yeah!!!
The master cyl had failed so that was a good call. New Load valve. New pair of slave cyls. New copper brake pipe from front to back. When I tested the brakes I could not believe the stopping power. Flew through the M.O.T with no advisors. Happy days.
Sold it on Gumtree for £1750 the next day. Sorry but Hijets are a pain in the arse and it will be the head gasket next, then the clutch..... and life's to short to be under a camper van than in it.
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Re: BRAKES. NOT WORKING. HELP NEEDED.

Post by HighlyJetted on Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:59 pm

Boo Sad Sad ending.

Nothing easier and cheaper to fix than a hijet.

p.s. ....... you'll be back Wink
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