Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

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Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:12 am

Hello, I'm Davide, I'm Italian and I have a 1998 Piaggio Porter1.0i, van, 4x4.
I've bought it in March primarily because I need a little van to carry wood from the mountain behind our little town, and then I need a replacement for my old Fiat Punto, that has over 280'000km on its wheels.

Then, with our fuel costs I need to run it on LPG, so I did mount a Landi sequential LPG system.

So far so good, except for a problem at low revs.

Basically if I accelerate from low revs, which happens to me often since my area is mountainous and the roads are often rough (you can find it on youtube searching [ La Scanuppia (da 'n zo®...) ]), the engine runs two cylinders until the engine speed does not rise a bit.

Primarily I changed spark plugs, I don't know how many kmeters have on it.

From the NGK BPR5EY-11 (with 1.1mm gap...) i put on it three BPR6EY-11 (adjusted at 0.8mm), the problem slightly decrease, but it remains.

the day before yesterday, on the advice of other users of LPG, I mounted 4 spark plugs Bosch WR7DC +, set to 0.65mm.

The engine runs better than the NGK at all engine speeds, but the problem remains. Laughing

Running on gasoline, has always worked perfectly, so I do not think is a problem of coil ... maybe cables, or what?

What kind of spark plug I need to run it properly?
Other suggestions?
Thank you...

Davide

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by HighlyJetted on Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:17 pm

Hello Davide, and welcome to the forum!

As the van runs fine on petrol I would suggest it is something to do with the LPG system.

Does the LPG system have a single gas injection point, or does it have 1 per cylinder?

When you say it runs on 3 cylinders at low speed, what you need to do is try to identify which cylinder is at fault - you can do this by removing a HT lead (spark cable) while it is running. Be careful not to get electrocuted!

Hopefully we can get you fixed, and maybe see you up in the Italian Alps for a little skiing one day Wink
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:40 pm

Thank you!

Reading on the web for suggestions I read that LPG/Air mixtures wants more power to be ignited (go-lpg.co.uk/Hints.html at point 5), then I think it can be a problem of insulation of the H.T. lead or inside the distributor.

However I have the problem only at very low rpm, I can't say precisely at how many rpm because I haven't (yet Very Happy ) a tachometer, but I think between the 900-1400rpm.

Except for this issue, engine runs perfectly on LPG.

The system is an electronic multi point injected one, we take a look to the air-fuel ratio and it is correct.

PS:It runs on two cylinders, if it runs on three it would be perfect... it is a 1.0i 3 cyl Very Happy

I live in the region of Trentino, but I can't ski, I don't like it...
I prefeer doing drifting by car on snow... Very Happy

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by HighlyJetted on Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:57 pm

El_Ventu wrote:The system is an electronic multi point injected one

PS:It runs on two cylinders, if it runs on three it would be perfect... it is a 1.0i 3 cyl Very Happy


I would maybe suggest one of the LPG injectors is at fault - does it have a set for petrol and a set for LPG?

Sorry about the three/two mistake - I always get caught out talking about 3 pot engines!

I personally would not think it is a problem with your ignition system, otherwise you would see the fault when running on petrol.
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:23 pm

I hope LPG injector are perfect, it has only 7000km on it, and the problem is still the same in these kmeters. Very Happy

However, I worked on the engine, I finished ten minutes ago...
1)The distributor brush had a lot of "dirt" due to arcing, and the same thing on the three "pins".
I cleaned the brush and the "pins" (I don't know its name in English) with a fine file and scotch brite, then I cleaned the interior of the distributor with spray contact cleaner.

2)I decided to clean the "old" (6000km on it...) NGK spark plugs, I regulate the gap at 0.75mm (in the manual, the gap for NGK plugs have to be regulated betweren 0.8 and 0.9mm, other brands have to be regulated between 0.7 and 0.8mm -why?-).


Result:smoother drive than with the Bosch at the same electrode gap regulation, I think because of the spark position, in the NGK is 4mm from the threaded part, in the bosch 3mm, but problem at the lower speed remains the same at medium engine temperature, if I run uphill (on the "street", or better, concrete covered path of the video of the 1st post) with full engine temperature (90°C, not overheated), it is a lot reduced.

Then I take a look (for the first time) at the EFI troubleshooting procedure indicated on the workshop manual.
I shorted the diagnosis contact and I read two errors, number 16 and 31...

According to the manual, I have problems on:

"code 16:Ignition signal: No ignition confirmation signal is inputted."
I must check ignition circuit, igniter and the ECU.

"Code 31:Pressure sensor:When the signal from pressure sensor becomes open or shorted"
I must check pressure sensor circuit, pressure sensor or ECU.

Oh yes, now I'm very happy!

Tomorrow I try to disconnect battery to cancel errors, then wednesday, after some kmeters, I retry to read errors...

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by HighlyJetted on Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:50 pm

There are your clues mate, code 16 and 31.

Well done on getting to this stage!

You could easily check the MAP (pressure sensor) signal with a multimeter on the correct pin in the ECU plug. Although you may find the gas system cuts into the map signal wire, causing the code to kick in when you switch from lpg to petrol.

From getting code 16, it might be something to do with either the ignitor being faulty, or the way the wiring alterations for LPG system. Maybe follow the testing procedure with it on LPG mode, and in petrol mode.
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:00 pm

Ok, thank you.
Tomorrow I try to reset errors, then I take a look at the errors...

See you!

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:25 pm

Battery disconnected for one minute, errors cancelled, engine runs perfectly even at low revs at full load!
Arrived home, I try to see if other errors are registered by the ECU, the diagnosis lamp blink faster, no errors.

I tried to turn on engine, and accelerating I was in trouble reading error 51...

After a fast reading of the manual, error 51 indicates that the trottle aren't in idle position when the diagnosis contacts are shorted Very Happy
Perfect!

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by HighlyJetted on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:36 pm

I made an extended list of error codes a while back on my site:-

http://www.daihatsuhijet.co.uk/hijet-diagnostic-engine-warning-light-flash-codes/
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:11 pm

At now it's running fine!!

I'll see you know very well Hi-Jets, then I ask you a question, Highly Jetted Very Happy

Does the CB42 engine have problems to valve seats running on LPG?

Some said me there's no problem, some others said me I'm mad becouse I haven't installed the flashlubeoiler or other additives.

I think I can't have problems, because I run it gently and slowly...but this engine is known to have that problem or not?

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by HighlyJetted on Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:56 pm

I don't know the full truth as I do not know what type of steel material the valves and valve seats are made of.

But what I can factually say is that Flashlube systems seriously reduce the life span of the catalytic convertor and the lambda/o2 sensors in the exhaust system. Adding a lube system is there to stop Microwelding, which is highly unlikely anyway. The biggest cause of excessive valve wear on LPG (or any fuel for that matter) is an incorrect air fuel ratio generating excessive heat.
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by HighlyJetted on Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:59 pm

Read this for more information:- http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/VSR.html
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:47 pm

I know that the fear of valve seat recession, in the majority of the cases, is a mental problem.

But...

I live in Italy, and if you know, Italy is one of the first country using LPG on cars.

I know that some cars, and not only in recent times, has more problems than others...

For example, a friend of my uncle in the middle '90s bought a 1.3L Ford Escort (cast iron head...without hardened valve seats Very Happy) and he want to put on it an LPG system.

His mechanic says the motor are not suitable for LPG, but he put the LPG on it, after less than 20'000km he has big problem with the exhaust valves.

On the other side, the father of a my ex-girlfriend has throwed away an Opel (Vauxhall in UK, I'm right?) Kadett 1.4 Club only because of the cost of the LPG cylinder (I don't know there, but in Italy we must change LPG cylinder every 10 years), the engine has over 300'000km on it, he mount the LPG system when engine has less than 1'500km, and he run EVERYTIME on lpg, from cold starting, that car can perform good (uhm, not good, but acceptable Very Happy ) cold starting on LPG with -15°C...
In the last times engine runs is very underpowered, but I think the problem was the piston rings, because it smokes white-blue during acceleration...

That's an engine that need to run on leaded gasoline.
We don't have more leaded fuel since 2000, and our leaded fuel was coloured red, in 1997 government discover that the red color causes some trouble to engines and health, then decides to leave the gas not coloured.

In 2006 we changed the carburettor on that Kadett, and in the tank were RED leaded fuel...and I know that father of my ex girlfriend never put in it more than 1/4 tank of gasoline...

Then that car burns no more than 10l of leaded gasoline between 1997 and 2006.
In that period it runs for at least 120'000km... Very Happy


There are some myth on the valve seat recession, but it may occour.

I know that the 1.3 16V of the Toyota Yaris have HUGE VSR problem, some LPG installer in Italy decided to not install LPG on these cars.

If I'm not wrong, it is the same engine of the 1.3 Hijet, maybe with some modifications...?
It is ironic, Piaggio in Italy sell the Porter with LPG or CNG system, and they run fine, and the Yaris has problems...

I can't find clear infos that say me if the CB42 has or not VSR problem...

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by HighlyJetted on Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:10 pm

El_Ventu wrote:I know that the 1.3 16V of the Toyota Yaris have HUGE VSR problem, some LPG installer in Italy decided to not install LPG on these cars.

If I'm not wrong, it is the same engine of the 1.3 Hijet, maybe with some modifications...?
It is ironic, Piaggio in Italy sell the Porter with LPG or CNG system, and they run fine, and the Yaris has problems...

I can't find clear infos that say me if the CB42 has or not VSR problem...

Yaris 1.3 has similar engine to Daihatsu YRV, the 1.3 hijet engine is from a different family.

Both the 993cc and 1300cc have aluminium cylinder heads with pressed in steel valve seats.

How that effects longevity I cannot say!

I think the serious problem of excessive terminal valve wear would be caused by hydraulic self adjusting tappets, continuously allowing the valve wear to progress.
The hijet has manual adjusted tappets, so if your seats wear too much then you will get leakage and tapping noises as an early warning sign.
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:23 pm

The problem is the opposite, as I know.

Hydraulic system adjust the valve play at every camshaft rotation, then IF the valve seat is made with a bad material, erosion is automatically compensated.

Obviously, in any case (mechanical adj. or hydraulic) wear modify seat geometry, then combustion pressure push the valve on a bigger and bigger area, reducing valve efficiency.

An old, weared but well registered engine has a bigger leak on the valves because of the higher contact area between valves and seat.

If you have an engine equipped with mechanical valve adjustment, and you forget to adjust the play (or seats wear in a time smaller than expected), valves will be burnt because of the blow-by of glowing gases.
In hydraulic systems, blow by occours only when the hyraulic valve tappet reaches its stroke end (millimeters...).

Mechanical systems allows you to understand if there's a valve seat erosion problem, if you do the measurements before valves works without play, allows the engine to run faster (smaller mass, in direct drive valve, obviously not in the case of a rocker arms), manufacturer spend less money in engineering and machining, but in normal use can give more problems of a hydraulic system...

I hope you can understand my english... Razz

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by HighlyJetted on Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:56 pm

Your English amazes me Davide, you know loads of technical terms which is a true virtue.

You are fully correct with your description of the valve wear "life cycle", so in my humble opinion the mechanical setup will highlight issues before the problem becomes major, while the hydraulic setup allows the system to continue to work through the wear until the issue become terminal. You should be able to notice the audible ticking noises on starting the engine from cold if there is wear - well if you know what you are listening for!

Either way with hydraulic or mechanical, if the owner does not pay attention to the symptoms then the repair will be expensive.

If you experience wear, the only good direction to take is to remove the cylinder head and have superior valves and seats fitted really!! Not much else you can do.

P.S Drifting Hijet videos are one of my true loves, so get your camera out this winter and entertain me geek
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:59 pm

I'm a lathe machinist and I write on some english technical forums on the web, because in Italy is difficult to find people how like metalworking and exotics constructions and spend time on the web.
I started writing in english because in 2005 I started to build a turbocharger based turbine engine, then I learn a lot of english technical terms that I don't know before...
However Google translate helps me a lot Very Happy

I think I have some problems with the basic grammar...

On the valves argument...
You can hear the sound of bad regulates valves when the play starts to be too little...?
I'm sure I can't, it sound to me strange that a camshaft that pushes a valve without "knocking" on the tappet or rocker arm can do any sound...
If the play becomes bigger than the specified, all the distribution plays an annoying song, not the opposite...I'm wrong?

The only thing you can feel if valve play becomes too little or zero, are misfiring due to the burnt valves when is too late to register valve play...

Then I prefer hydraulic system, at least you can drive for more kmeters before your valves fails...

I made a try in april, to drift on snow...
I have a 4x4 Porter, in april I had four crappy winter remolded wheels on it (bad tread design on this little measure and old and hardened tread).
On the 11th april it is snowed on the top of mountains, then I decided to go on the Coe pass (1600 meter on sea level), but I can't drift...
If I try to run without the four wheels drive, I can't move.
If I run with the four wheels drive, I can't drift...
It is funny, but i made some try, the only way to drift is to run downhill, on 2wd, and accelerate or decelerate during a turn...
I must try this winter with my new (old design, remolded) winter tires.

However I can drift well on wet traffic roundabout when it's raining and there are no other cars...I have five of these traffic engineering bullshit on the road to go work (18kmeters of road)...



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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by elfin girl on Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:08 pm

Should have videod my fun last snow fall, before I got totally stranded by the river (couldn't get back up the hill) I spent a lot of time trying to go forwards and mostly going sideways, backwards or doing 360 pirouettes, all with very little effort and fortunately not into any walls or anybody else's cars Very Happy
Could have done with some tyres like that!
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by HighlyJetted on Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:11 pm

You can hear the sound of bad regulates valves when the play starts to be too little...?
I'm sure I can't, it sound to me strange that a camshaft that pushes a valve without "knocking" on the tappet or rocker arm can do any sound...
If the play becomes bigger than the specified, all the distribution plays an annoying song, not the opposite...I'm wrong?

No, I'm sorry - You are totally correct! I am being fully stupid Embarassed

I keep thinking about typical valve wear in the cam and follower - while this type of possible LPG wear is on the valve seats.

I personally dislike hydraulic self adjusting lifters due to them failing to work correctly in vauxhals/opels normally due to poor oil servicing - I prefer the simple manual adjustment method.

I drive every day down a bendy back road to the next town, about 6 miles of twisty tarmac - there are about 5 or 6 corners that I am getting very good at getting the Hijet to drift around when the tarmac is wet. One day I plan to make a video but I feel that it will go horribly wrong and crash on camera!
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:31 pm

If the problem is poor oil servicing, it isn't the hydraulic valve adjustment...

You can have a rod out the crankcase for bad old oil, I think you don't like an engine without rods because of this issue Very Happy

However...
I know that opel Ecotec engine have mechanical tappets.
And BAD valve seats.

And tappets have to be changed in block to regulate play, they don't have calibrated stellited disks...

A friend of mine spend over 200€ ONLY for the tappets... Very Happy

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by bushwhacker on Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:53 pm

El_Ventu wrote:

I know that the 1.3 16V of the Toyota Yaris have HUGE VSR problem, some LPG installer in Italy decided to not install LPG on these cars.

If I'm not wrong, it is the same engine of the 1.3 Hijet, maybe with some modifications...?
...

Hijet = Daihatsu engine, Extol = Yaris engine.
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:55 pm

Thank you of the info, some peoples said to me that the engine was the same, but I never investigate on it... Very Happy

However, at now the misfiring problem is solved.

I had another problem, with water temperature, but I wrote in another topic...

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:43 pm

The problem returns...
Thus, I tried putting on three (used) platinum bosch spark plug, and the problem still remains.

But...I think there's a basic mistake in my reasoning, last time.
I tought that the problem was based on the error on the MAP sensor.

But my LPG system has another MAP for LPG ECU.
Probabily on the petrol ecu I can't read the errors from the LPG ECU Very Happy
And now I can find no errors on the diagnosis.

However the problem is reduced compared to the last time...I had misfiring only under the 1500rpm (says the tacho...).

However, last time, spark plug was "dirty", thinking engine running on LPG.
Now the isolator is maybe too white...





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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by HighlyJetted on Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:04 pm

This little problem is bugging me! I think you really need to pin it down a little bit.

Is it one cylinder that has problems?

My wild guess right now is leads, distributor cap and rotor arm for all its worth.
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:00 pm

Sometimes it is running perfectly, some other not.

I want to try to change the position of the connection of the LPG MAP sensor directly to the manifold, now it is connected on a vacuum line with other stuff....

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:36 am

Problem randomly reappears, yesterday It happens when I'm near my LPG installer, thus I asked him if he can help me to solve the problem.

He gave me an emulator (AEB124) that have to be placed between the LPG and original ECUs.

Problem solved Very Happy
Now I'm searching what this emulator does, I'm curious...

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by HighlyJetted on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:35 pm

Glad you got sorted, lets hope its a permanent fix!
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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by El_Ventu on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:56 pm

I hope, but it has some misfiring again, but only at ultra-low RPM...I tried to accelerate on a light steep from 1000rpm, sometimes it fails some firing, but a lot less than before... Very Happy

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by PFM on Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:19 pm

El_Ventu wrote:Now I'm searching what this emulator does, I'm curious...

Emulators are electronic devices that simulate several original vehicle signals that have to be interrupted or altered during gas operation (petrol injectors, Lambda probe, MAP, etc.) Their use prevents the original control unit of the vehicle from detecting false malfunctions due to the fact that the engine is not running on petrol, and consequently prevents the “check engine” light on unwarrantedly. The emulator model appropriate for each vehicle varies according to the type of original injection system.Some AEB emulators are equipped with harnesses with connectors the same as those of the vehicle so as to avoid having to work on the vehicle’s original system. http://www.aeb.it/products/emulators

I wonder if others have had this problem, or if the LPG system fitted in the UK was different from the Italian one?

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Re: Misfiring at low rpms when running on LPG.

Post by HighlyJetted on Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:34 pm

His is an aftermarker recent addition while the ones we got in the UK are all that polini(? forgot the name now) system.
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