Engine underheating:D

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Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:06 pm

I know normally it is the opposite (mine has the head gasket new for the second time before I bought, it in march @49'000km...), but mine has an under-heating problem.

I don't know why, I think because of my mechanic has done a tiny hole in the thermostat, but my engine can't reach the correct temperature during driving at 70-90km/h even with outside temperature over 30°...
I hadn't see the gauge over the half scale even driving on steep streets (or offroad...).

I never had problem with water level, I add only a cup of water in all the summer, radiator is full, no leaks...

It can be only a problem caused by the hole in the thermostat?

Yours reaches the correct operating temperature in how many kmeters?

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by rich the mechanic on Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:36 pm

Ours is up to running temp after a few kilometers, the thermostat does have a small bleed hole as standard and half way up the gauge is about normal but the gauges do not have stop points it is possible to run the engine to temperature and while the ignition is on take the clock cover off and pull the needle off and push it back on to read differently.
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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by elfin girl on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:25 pm

mine was under heating at the begining of the year, i was told there was no thermostat, but cant see how that was true as it had been working fine for 3 years.
after it having work done it kept over heating im now nearing the end (hopefully) of sorting that problem, decided id rather do as much of the work myself as possible so i know what has and hasnt been done!


Last edited by daisydon on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammer)
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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:22 pm

Ok, then I've got a problem, because mine can't arrive to the first quart of the gauge.

I'm sure that the gauge is correct, when running it on mountain or in the traffic the fan starts about in center scale of the gauge (~90°C).

At now I run with a small gum car floor mat in front of the radiator Very Happy.
But I must fix the problem before of winter...I think I had to plug the added hole (mechanic says me it's a 3mm hole...) with tin in the thermostat, then I can do another one if engine runs too hot.
If not, I had to run over 4-5km, on 18-20 km trip to go to my job, to run it on LPG (my lpg system start working only when engine temperature was over 40°C), and I haven't hot air to defreeze the windshield...and that's a huge problem if you live in a place where temperatures can fall under -15° during winter Very Happy

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by waz on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:51 pm

Hi El Ventu, reading about your windscreen icing over at - 15, when I lived in Hungary winter temps were - 15 to - 25 but windscreens stayed frost free. Don't know the reason for this but maybe it was just a 'dry' cold if you understand what I mean
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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by HighlyJetted on Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:31 pm

El_Ventu wrote:If not, I had to run over 4-5km, on 18-20 km trip to go to my job, to run it on LPG (my lpg system start working only when engine temperature was over 40°C), and I haven't hot air to defreeze the windshield...and that's a huge problem if you live in a place where temperatures can fall under -15° during winter Very Happy

You should not have to modify a thermostat to make it work correctly.

And I understand your issues, keeping the windscreen clean and the driver hot enough to stay alive would help you to survive the winter season.

They run with the needle at exactly 1/2 way, there is a line in the middle where they should stay. If they go about 2mm past the centre mark the electric fan should kick in.

They take about 10 to 15 minutes sitting still to reach temperature here in the UK at 5 to 10 degrees outside temperature. And while driving about 2 miles of standard driving.
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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:14 pm

waz wrote:Hi El Ventu, reading about your windscreen icing over at - 15, when I lived in Hungary winter temps were - 15 to - 25 but windscreens stayed frost free. Don't know the reason for this but maybe it was just a 'dry' cold if you understand what I mean

I understand perfectly, the problem, when temperatures falls under -5°C is when you run on wet roads in icy conditions and you must use windshield washer fluid...
I use 30-40%ethanol+water+a little bit of soap as windscreen cleaner, and when ethanol evaporates it cools windscreen, then breathing humidity becomes ice on glasses... Very Happy

That's not a problem with external ice, but internal... Very Happy Very Happy

When temperatures falls a lot under the zero, air becomes so dry...

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:20 pm

HighlyJetted wrote:
El_Ventu wrote:If not, I had to run over 4-5km, on 18-20 km trip to go to my job, to run it on LPG (my lpg system start working only when engine temperature was over 40°C), and I haven't hot air to defreeze the windshield...and that's a huge problem if you live in a place where temperatures can fall under -15° during winter Very Happy

You should not have to modify a thermostat to make it work correctly.

And I understand your issues, keeping the windscreen clean and the driver hot enough to stay alive would help you to survive the winter season.

They run with the needle at exactly 1/2 way, there is a line in the middle where they should stay. If they go about 2mm past the centre mark the electric fan should kick in.

They take about 10 to 15 minutes sitting still to reach temperature here in the UK at 5 to 10 degrees outside temperature. And while driving about 2 miles of standard driving.
I don't want to modify my thermostat, but I want to close the hole drilled (in my 58€ new thermostat...) by the mechanic who install LPG on mine in march.

He does the modification on all the Porter they worked on, but here 99.9% porter are veichle that are used by gardening companies or by the municipality, in urban driving about all the time...then they worked well when engine runs colder, less overheating issues.

Mine are the 0.01%, I think we are in two in alle the valley with a Porter used as a car...

I try to avoid replacing it because of the cost I pay.

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by HighlyJetted on Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:38 pm

El_Ventu wrote:
HighlyJetted wrote:
El_Ventu wrote:If not, I had to run over 4-5km, on 18-20 km trip to go to my job, to run it on LPG (my lpg system start working only when engine temperature was over 40°C), and I haven't hot air to defreeze the windshield...and that's a huge problem if you live in a place where temperatures can fall under -15° during winter Very Happy

You should not have to modify a thermostat to make it work correctly.

And I understand your issues, keeping the windscreen clean and the driver hot enough to stay alive would help you to survive the winter season.

They run with the needle at exactly 1/2 way, there is a line in the middle where they should stay. If they go about 2mm past the centre mark the electric fan should kick in.

They take about 10 to 15 minutes sitting still to reach temperature here in the UK at 5 to 10 degrees outside temperature. And while driving about 2 miles of standard driving.
I don't want to modify my thermostat, but I want to close the hole drilled (in my 58€ new thermostat...) by the mechanic who install LPG on mine in march.

He does the modification on all the Porter they worked on, but here 99.9% porter are veichle that are used by gardening companies or by the municipality, in urban driving about all the time...then they worked well when engine runs colder, less overheating issues.

Mine are the 0.01%, I think we are in two in alle the valley with a Porter used as a car...

I try to avoid replacing it because of the cost I pay.

I don't understand why the LPG mechanic modifies the thermostats to work. This will make the engine run at an incorrect running temperature altering the performance of things like oil, piston ring end gaps, EFI based fuel/temperature control.
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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:52 pm

It's a work that a lot of mechanic here in italy does.
I think it's because of the experiences on fiats when running on mountain streets, a lot of small fiats have problem of overheating I think because of the small radiators fitted on it.

In my town I think 90% of 4x4 panda (and I think we had the higher quantity of Panda 4x4 / inhabitants ratio in the world due the necessity of people to climb the Scanuppia mountain, I think we have about 80-90 panda in a town of 1800 people) has the thermostat modifications, and the remaining 10% haven't thermostat...when you drive on a street with a medium steep of 30%, maybe with four persons on the seat and a lot of heavy things like drinkable water, fuel for gensets and food for some days, the small Fire engine have to run in 1st gear at 70-100% throttle for over ten minutes, and probabily overheats...

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by HighlyJetted on Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:13 am

El_Ventu wrote:
waz wrote:Hi El Ventu, reading about your windscreen icing over at - 15, when I lived in Hungary winter temps were - 15 to - 25 but windscreens stayed frost free. Don't know the reason for this but maybe it was just a 'dry' cold if you understand what I mean

I use 30-40%ethanol+water+a little bit of soap as windscreen cleaner, and when ethanol evaporates it cools windscreen, then breathing humidity becomes ice on glasses... Very Happy

That's not a problem with external ice, but internal... Very Happy Very Happy

When temperatures falls a lot under the zero, air becomes so dry...

Oh we get it so different over here, the small amount of snow we get is always wet and slushy. Our windscreens freeze up real bad on the outside so we spend 5 minutes chipping and scraping the ice off in the morning. Humidity never gets low like it does up the alps, also with the low pressure at your higher altitudes it effects the water holding ability of the air.

For hijets you can buy different temperature rated thermostats, 78 degree, 82 degree and 86 degree. Maybe this might help you.

Also on a 1.3 model you can fit the water pump from a daihatsu sportrak which has a smaller pulley wheel thus increasing pumping speed. Your engine has the same bits as daihatsu charade so maybe you can swap the pulley over to a smaller one?
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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:13 pm

We have the same problem during last autumn and first spring periods.
Normally we have external freezing problems when the external temperature drop below zero during night.
But it is a very variable thing, depending on the winds.
We have some winter without snow and not very cold (it happens that in a winter temperatures drop few times below zero), other one, like the 2005/06 winter, with very low temperatures in december, "warm" temp. in the first part of january and then over a meter of snow in three days at the end of january, and others, like last winter, with very small snow precipitations but colder than other winters...
In the first day of this year I found the house where I live, I start to work in it (wood floors need some work...), and in first day we didn't have a contract fot natural gas supply...
I remember well that in that days temperatures was everytime below zero, about -5/-8° at midday and -15/-18° during night.
Different than in England, you have the gulf current helping you... Very Happy

Today I bought a new thermostat, rated at 82°.
In next days I mount it, then I check and make photos of my tachometer connection...
Today I worked all the day to try to fix a problem of irregular idle on my parent's Stilo...I think that the electronic butterfly valve was broken, with an EOBD check at idle the ECU says it's open at 35 to 45%...

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by HighlyJetted on Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:23 pm

That Stilo issue could be the TPS sensor
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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:21 pm

The stilo has the electronic throttle, there's no one external position sensor, it's a single "block" containing throttle, step motor and sensor...

I hate automotive electronics...

Maybe we can have a new throttle from the vendor, we bought the car in august with the problem, vendor says that's a problem of dirt injectors because the car remains in his garage for over a year, if not, we try to found it in a car demolition where works a friend of my dad...

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:14 pm

This morning I worked on the thermostat, the LPG installer simply has eliminated the bleeding valve and enlarged a bit his hole on the thermostat flange.
It was a 88°C rated one, now I mount the 82°C rated one without modification.

I've do the work with the Porter parked on a downhill road to have the thermostat in the highest position, a good idea, because only a little quantity of water comes out from the engine.
After the work I bleed the sistem from air as described, and I must add only a half glass of water.

Excluded the fact that the seller tell me that I don't need a new gasket for the thermostat "because there's a reusable O-Ring" (he's surely didn't have the gasket in his shop...), work was very simple.

I had only to clean perfectly the housing to have a perfect surface to use silicone liquid gasket, and waiting about 20minutes before reassemble to leave silicone level and harden a bit (If you don't know the Arexons Motorsil D, you don' know one of the better engine repair-related inventions in the world...Very Happy ).

Now engine runs in the first " quart " of the temperature gauge I want to see how many km I have to run it to reach that temperature from cold engine.
Surely the difference between the old modified thermostat and now is clear, with the modified temperature drop under the first part of the gauge running downhill for a few km, even with the radiator partially covered.

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:26 pm

The engine reaches temperature in three km of smooth driving, starting a little downhill, in a hundred meters I put in the 5th gear, and I run it for the first 500m downhill with 1/4 throttle, after 1km of flat road the LPG system start to work and after the third km I see the gauge indicating 1/4 scale.

I want to see it when it's cold, but for now I'm happy of it!

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by HighlyJetted on Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:49 pm

Good out come so far.

I'd double check the coolant bleeding a couple of times as it may cough up more air.
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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:24 am

I'd checked the level three times after doing the job, and after the first time I never add water, radiator is still full.
But I haven't bleed out air from the upper tube (coming from internal heating radiator, I'm right?) after the first time, because no air went out from it even the first time, only a little bubbling, then only water.

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:52 pm

This morning I gone to work, there's 6°C.
In three km it reaches the operating temperature, after 1km coming warm air in the cabin!
Much better!

Next sunday meteo forecast says it's a snowy day (maybe a little too early for the season)...

I do the work just in time...
Next days I mount winter tyres.

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by HighlyJetted on Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:02 pm

Now you won't be freezing your nuts off mate Smile

Great success Twisted Evil
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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:50 pm

Yesterday I find a little coolant leak on the front bumper.
Checked for radiator cap proper sealing, the cap closes well, and the gasket is in good shape.
I heated the engine and fan started three times, no one drop exits.
The bleeding plug is also in good shape, and no leaks are visible.

Coolant level in the radiator is OK, no air under the cap, the water tank is full, and the cap on the metal tube opens slightly when pressure in the system reaches a good pressure (I control flow going into the water tank).

I've never seen overheating, monday I took a "long" ride with a colleague of mine looking for a dog for him in a dog shelter, we ride in highway -top speed 100km/h, with snow tires Very Happy- and on normal streets, engine temperature was all the time perfectly stable.

What could have happened?
is a thing that can happen or not it is possible, under normal conditions?

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by HighlyJetted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:19 pm

What sort of cap do you have fitted to the radiator?
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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:08 pm

I think it is the original one...

If the question is "have the cap a pressure opening device", the answer is "i don't know".
It is similar to my Fiat Ducato's cap.
But on the ducato's one there's stamped clearly the opening pressure, on that there's no indication, as I remember.
However if I remember well there's a spring that pushes the pad with the gasket on a plain surface in the hole of the radiator, it can be this cap has a "pressure limiter" to avoid problems if the other was blocked...
I prefeer soo much systems with pressurized expansion tank.

In next days I take a look on it, now engine is hot.
However, no leakage yesterday and today.

EDIT:Looking on your post, it is the same of the lower one of the photo.



And it has also the 0.9 number stamped on it.
That is clearly the opening pressure...

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:54 am

News.

Yesterday I bought a new cap (7€).
It has stamped on it an opening pressure of 1.2bar, I tought that's a good thing if I put it on the radiator.
In my idea if I have a pressure regulated valve 0.9 on the pipe that is connected with expansion tank, having a radiator cap that opens at 0.3bar higher allows me to have the radiator cap as a "safety" pressure relief valve if the other one was blocked.

Then I return home, I waited the engine to cool down, then I take off the old cap...
And, altough it has the 0.9 pressure stamped on it, it haven't any pressure relief valve. Suspect
It is only a cap that closes the radiator, without any sort of spring or other stuff.
And also, the radiator haven't the hole that relief the pressure when a relief valve opens.
Laughing

The rubber seal on the original one is in very good shape.
I simply bent a bit the fins that hold it in place, I lubricated the rubber with silicone grease, and I re-install it.

And now I have a new cap with the presure relief valve set to 1.2bar, and an old original cap opening at 0.9bar fitted on the veichle.

I must use the 0.9bar one or I can use the 1.2 one in your opinion?

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by HighlyJetted on Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:05 pm

I have no answer just an opinion, I will dispense this opinion now...

Uprating the cap runs the risk of cracking thermostat housings and other weak spots in the coolant system like hoses, radiators, seals and gaskets.

I have uprated caps on performance engines which are pushing the limits of the coolants system (making the water boil in the head under boost from the turbo), but it is a risky game. First you should change all the hose spring clips over to screw tight ones, then make sure things like thermostat housings etc are metal.

You may not have any issues at all, but at the same time the system was manufactured to have a 0.9 bar safety blow off valve. Increasing it by 33% is making a pretty hefty change.
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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:13 pm

Ok, I try to change it...
Or I bought a new one.

Ithink to use the 1.2 one because I see loads of car that have same engine with higher pressure valves, for example the stilo of my parents, on the Bravo and the Marea that engine has a 1.0 bar opening pressure valve, on the stilo, running at 105°C, it opens at 1.6bar.
Pipes and expansion tant was about the same.

You have see radiator caps like mine before?

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:44 pm

In the shop they exchanged me the cap with a right one.

Maybe I have to change it before to have problems with the old one...

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:09 pm

I changed thermostat, from the 82° of last year to a 88°, because engine never had overheating and because this winter I go working all the days...and I need warm air Very Happy

Even with this new one, engine runs at 70-72° from the LPG ECU reading -and also from the temp-gauge-...

Then I have a question.

The yellow fan that mine have on the water pump pulley, is an original part or some mechanic has mounted it before I bought??

Please give me an answer, I'm thinking to take it off...

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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by HighlyJetted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:14 pm

I have never seen one with a fan mounted to the engine...

I don't think it is original.

Look at where your LPG vaporizer has been plumbed in, as it might be letting coolant circulate through the block without being regulated by the thermostat.
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Re: Engine underheating:D

Post by El_Ventu on Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:52 pm

Thank you!
My doubt is related to the 4wd modification.
Maybe http://www.grecav.it/ installed the fan when the 4wd modification was installed...maybe to help air circulating around the engine when LO gear is used (?).
Or...maybe a mechanic unable to properly bleed the system from air, installed it after the second head gasket change (yes, in 49'000km, before I bought last year, the gasket were burnt two times...).

The LPG evaporator is connected in parallel to the cabin heating.
It works well, and when engine was hot, around 90°C, even the heating is very good.
I can't say the same thing with 70°C engine temperature...

I can read precisely the evaporator temperature via LPG ECU software, with the "old" thermostat (totally open at 82°C) engine runs at 68-70°C in any condition, even during long downhill or uphill, obviously when there is enough air speed to properly cool the radiator.
Then I think there's no wrong connection of the evaporator heating pipes, because if the return tube from evaporator was connected between thermostat and radiator, temperature decrease rapidly during downhill.
The engine temperature is about that, according to the gauge...indicator stays slightly before the ideal line between the first and the second quart of the scale.

I have another doubt...
Maybe the second head gasket is different from the original...
I heard there's different types of gasket, with larger cooling holes than the original, that have some flow restriction.
But it can improve the water circulation, not the heat dissipation with closed or semi-closed thermostat.

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